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How is not being able to express your very own consciousness, the very essence of what you are less atrocious than what happens to people who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? Don't take freedom of expression for granted.

Jec wrote:How is not being able to express your very own consciousness, the very essence of what you are less atrocious than what happens to people who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? Don't take freedom of expression for granted.

Where did I say that was less atrocious?

Well how can you even put it on the same level. The US 's actions at least have utilitaristic rationality behind them. Islamic extremists don't, no one wins everyone dies ...Bill once said when complaining that people.consider atheism a religion, "Don't put your irrationality on the same shelf as my rationality"

So its better because our intentions are rational? How can I consciously believe being jailed for over a decade without a charge in countries that supposedly value freedom and just trials, while imprisoned held down and raped by dogs(actual dogs), being denied food, water and life under the cause of security, or killed while attending a wedding in ones own home for "being at the wrong place at the wrong time" is NOT equivalent? This sounds like the opposite of rationality.

Jet wrote:So its better because our intentions are rational?

Yes.
Acting rationally doesn't necessarily mean it's for a good purpose, but at least "makes sense". You're achieving something. From an economical point of view, at least one rational agent is in a better position than the beginning of the game. In terrorism, no one gains anything, only terror, which is an idea, not a rational agent

Death for the sake of death, destruction for the sake of destruction, how is this not the worst?

Jec wrote:

Jet wrote:So its better because our intentions are rational?

Yes.
Acting rationally doesn't necessarily mean it's for a good purpose, but at least "makes sense". You're achieving something. From an economical point of view, at least one rational agent is in a better position than the beginning of the game. In terrorism, no one gains anything.

When the inhumane torture you are commiting after illegally imprisoning a suspected terrorist yields you false intelligence and you keep doing it, that is not rational. When you dont release an accurate report on drone strikes, much less know the identity of who you are killing under the guise of fighting terrorism and keep doing it, that is not rational. When you deny people life and make no attempt to rectify this situation by holding people responsible, or at the very LEAST making sure this cant happen again, yet expect this to be considered an effective fight against terrorists....that is not rational.

...To say nothing of how "rationality" supercedes international law.

If you win something from it, like money and funding... It is rational. That's what you are not seeing, what are the agents in the game obtaining with their actions?

We clearly value different principles and that's not gonna change today.

This type of government action to combat religious extremism just breeds more radicalism so its counter productive and irrational if the end goal is to see it reduced. Those who are aware of this inefficiency and still see it pursued for reasons of greed are then immoral in addition to incompetent. Incredible to suggest there is no equivalent and one religion is the ultimate evil in the world.

I dont see that as the case and that does not mean I value the right of expression any less than you do.

You do realize my position is actually the unpopular one, right? Most of the world agrees with you on your position and look at where it has led us.

Today we received audio from one of the terrorists that hijacked the Kosher store and took hostages. While he did say one of the reasons he fights is because of American foreign policy, he also went on a tirade on how France does not respect Muslim traditions. His aggressions were based because the French make their women take off their hijabs... I agree that racism is bad yet like the leader if Hezbollah said himself ñ, this attack only hurts Muslims. The reason islamophobia perpetuates is because of terrorist acts. If terrorism didn't exist... The French wouldn't resent the Muslim community, if Muslims didn't try to alter laws in Europe to fit their Sharia needs, the Europeans would not resent the Muslim community. There's endogeinity here that perpetuates the violence. The US can pull out of the middle east and the terrorist attacks can stop, but that's not gonna stop Muslims trying to make Europe an Islamic (by using the state, a tool) haven causing friction with the European culture. Which is why Bill Maher and Sam Harris are right, "Islam is the motherlode of bad ideas"

Jec wrote:You do realize my position is actually the unpopular one, right? Most of the world agrees with you on your position and look at where it has led us.

Today we received audio from one of the terrorists that hijacked the Kosher store and took hostages. While he did say one of the reasons he fights is because of American foreign policy, he also went on a tirade on how France does not respect Muslim traditions. His aggressions were based because the French make their women take off their hijabs... I agree that racism is bad yet like the leader if Hezbollah said himself ñ, this attack only hurts Muslims. The reason islamophobia perpetuates is because of terrorist acts. If terrorism didn't exist... The French wouldn't resent the Muslim community, if Muslims didn't try to alter laws in Europe to fit their Sharia needs, the Europeans would not resent the Muslim community. There's endogeinity here that perpetuates the violence. The US can pull out of the middle east and the terrorist attacks can stop, but that's not gonna stop Muslims trying to make Europe an Islamic (by using the state, a tool) haven causing friction with the European culture. Which is why Bill Maher and Sam Harris are right, "Islam is the motherlode of bad ideas"

Once again I disagree with you on the comments of state, putting that aside....yes I am aware your position isn't the popular one politically. Though there have been anti islam rallies in Germany recently close to 20,000 strong. At the moment the counter protests are still stronger but far right parties like the one I mentioned before, Golden Dawn, are only growing in number. So you never know, maybe one day it wont be.

The assertion that the current situation exists is because of the west "coddling" muslims is ridiculous. Terrorists dont care what the west has to say about their actions and everyday muslims are more than aware of the current climate when they are losing their sons and daughters to it. Both by the decision of some to join ISIS and their ilk, or from western freedom bombs. You aren't telling them anything they dont already know. If anything thinking of islam as the ultimate evil in the world is closer to being the cause of this. Or perhaps I should say 'axis of evil.' Though as I have already stated I dont believe it to be as simple as that. There are obviously other issues here interlinked. Religion is certainly a part of it, just as western action is. But to say there is no equivalent, no.

Jet... Sweedes can't even hang their national flags in public schools anymore because it might offend the Muslim population.... Enough said...

The first golden dawn protest was weak but the second one was 70 thousand strong...

It's already bad that people loose their lives due to political disagreements, its even worse and far more gut wrenching that people die due to difference in fictional theories of the afterlife...

Its not as simple as one ultimate evil jec. That kind of black and white thinking sounded appealing to me back in September when I heard Bill talking about Islam. It sounded rational...I could actually see myself agreeing with most of it. But now im closer to the middle in the issue. Though I have no love for any religion. I don't see that changing.

Of course it isn't black and white, but ignoring the chunks of meat for bullshit political correctness doesn't help. Religions poisons things in a way you can't even imagine. I've lost love just because her mom didn't like the fact that I didn't go to church :/

But jec you literally are black and white(trololololol)

But seriously, I havent seen anyone make the point to absolve religion of all significance, even on cable news. All the talk is 'reform.' Though another thing that doesnt help is expecting an apology from all muslims every time theres an attack. Reminds me of the black on black crime narrative.

Im sorry for your loss jec. Did she break it off because of her mom or did you? I lost a friend to religion myself back in high school. Even his middle school friends did after he kept trying to push them to go to church with em. I mean he got really into it. Good for him, I mean he was happy at least.

Edited post^

Not an apology, just complete condemnation. Many do, but when half of the "moderates" say the cartoonists "had it coming", that's when I fucking loose it.

That's the problem with religion, they can't simply reform and Islam is a difficult religion particularly. Muslims would have to admit that the violent passages of the qoran have no place in modern society and that would require that they renounce the current state of their holy book and modify it.... And we all know that isn't happening...

They shouldnt be expected to condemn the obviously condemnable. Just like black leaders shouldnt be expected to answer for the guy who shot the two nypd officers a few weeks ago. But here

Not comparable, for starters, a race is different from a religion. Of course some Muslims condemnation it, but just go to twitter and see what the average Muslim had to say on the subject... Just as the hashing, Jesuischarlie took force, so did Jenesuispascharlie and jesuisahmed were just as prominent

Are baptists a race? Thats missing the whole point

I just took a look on twitter for the latter and read some very positive messages. So this guy was a muslim cop disagreeing with crude satire but died defending the right?

Regardless of what vile shit might be trending its twitter. Back when ferguson was on the news Iamdarrenwilson was trending so I wouldnt take as much stock in anecdotals. The fact is the majority of muslims are condemning the attacks, even though they shouldn't be expected to.

It's not that they condem it, it that there are apologist out there, and many of them too... Not only Muslims but non Muslim "liberals" saying they got what they deserved... Heck, even my Facebook stream is filled with statuses condemning charlie hebdo for being provocative...

Those are bad people saying that. Lot of assholes on the internet. Just like when the eric garner case happened there were suddenly people claiming he should have followed the law and then he wouldnt have died. Shits fucked up all over

Online people exists in the physical world too... Maybe they don't say it in real life for the loss of anonymity, but that doesn't mean they don't think that and won't act according to those thoughts

How many of those people have you encountered in the real world?

I told you, friends, people I know share these apologist thoughts... Even my mom...

All the hate you see on the internet is not without consequence, some may even come on as micro-aggression.
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Here's Jerry Coyne ripping Reza Aslan a new one....

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/01/12/are-there-limits-to-multiculturalism-jerry-coyne-ripping-into-apologist-reza-aslan-says-absolutely/

This stands out:
"What is wrong with “multiculturalism”? That depends on how you define it. If you mean “tolerating or celebrating the customs of people from another land,” it’s fine — and desirable."...

..."But when multiculturalism involves importing antidemocratic ideas into a democratic culture, then it becomes problematic...By all means keep your Ramadan, your delicious food, your clothing (except, perhaps, the veil), your prayers, your mosques, and so on. But don’t you dare try to quash freedom of speech, beat your wives, kill your daughters, or try to practice sharia law in France."

I asked how many, not who. In any case theres not much point in losing it overer conjecture.